War has been declared...

[Call Me Tim]

They are now pondering the conclusion and now suggesting that it was premature.
Same article.
Now, interpretations of Calhoun’s work has changed. Inglis-Arkell explains that the habitats he created weren’t really overcrowded, but that isolation enabled aggressive mice to stake out territory and isolate the beautiful ones. She writes, "Instead of a population problem, one could argue that Universe 25 had a fair distribution problem."

I remember that some recreations of the same study showed the rodent population only reached 70% of the maximum possible population.

Here's an interesting analysis.

John B. Calhoun and his Rat Utopia — DemystifySci

The story of a devoted scientist, his rat villages, and the lessons he learned about the shadows that lurk in the heart of crowded spaces.

demystifyingscience.com

This I only skimmed this in parts, to refresh my memory, but the real conclusion I understood from these types of experiments, and i read them years ago, is not how the population will over-populate and eventually collapse, but how the increased stress of the threat of overcrowding affects behavior in odd ways. ie the beautiful ones explained in more detail in Ph.D. Anastasia Bendebury's article.

 

[Raddy]

I'm not reading all of that, I will be long dead b4 society collapses so idgaf. And if it does collapse b4 I die then I die with the collapse. Either way, I'm dead, so, yay!

My question is, wtf makes a rodent beautiful?

 

[Call Me Tim]

 

[MutatedIwa]

If this does turn out to be basically a proxy play what are the odds drone strikes happen you think?

 

[Maggie]

They are now pondering the conclusion and now suggesting that it was premature.
Same article.
Now, interpretations of Calhoun’s work has changed. Inglis-Arkell explains that the habitats he created weren’t really overcrowded, but that isolation enabled aggressive mice to stake out territory and isolate the beautiful ones. She writes, "Instead of a population problem, one could argue that Universe 25 had a fair distribution problem."

I remember that some recreations of the same study showed the rodent population only reached 70% of the maximum possible population.

Here's an interesting analysis.

John B. Calhoun and his Rat Utopia — DemystifySci

The story of a devoted scientist, his rat villages, and the lessons he learned about the shadows that lurk in the heart of crowded spaces.

demystifyingscience.com

This I only skimmed this in parts, to refresh my memory, but the real conclusion I understood from these types of experiments, and i read them years ago, is not how the population will over-populate and eventually collapse, but how the increased stress of the threat of overcrowding affects behavior in odd ways. ie the beautiful ones explained in more detail in Ph.D. Anastasia Bendebury's article.

Interesting, gonna certainly read that

Now, the part about "isolation" (?) and "beautiful" and "fair" rodents made my bs alarm tingle a bit...too many "woke "words...

And yep, I'm afraid the author of the article, Esther Inglis-Arkell, is just a pop-science journo, with pearls like this

https://gizmodo.com/10-pieces-of-advice-from-science-fiction-and-fantasy-mo-5864397

Now I have to read her sources, to see at what extent they say that... or how much bullcrap she has injected in the article to apease Gizmodo readers (let's remember, cripto-Gawker cultists)

I dunno, I don't know what is "maximum possible population", how is that calculated (termodynamically? lol) and why we need to reach that "maximum" before the stress of overpopulation becomes unbearable for some, or most, of the subjects... which in fact is hinted in your next sentence: " but how the increased stress of the threat of overcrowding affects behavior" I'm not sure how rats can process the "threat" of an incoming situation, maybe they can collectively model the future to that extent, like some furry hivemind... but I doubt it

All seems to me like tracing circles around the fact that (perhaps local but multiple and predominant) overpopulation can trigger those weird behaviours way before the technical limit of population is reached, whatever that is.
Calling it "the results of inminent overpopulation threat" instead of "the results of overpopulation" sounds to me like dancing...

 

[Maggie]

The most beatiful rat ever is Trevor, hands down

 

[Call Me Tim]

I dunno, I don't know what is "maximum possible population", how is that calculated (termodynamically? lol) and why we need to reach that "maximum" before the stress of overpopulation becomes unbearable for some, or most, of the subjects... which in fact is hinted in your next sentence: " but how the increased stress of the threat of overcrowding affects behavior" I'm not sure how rats can process the "threat" of an incoming situation, maybe they can collectively model the future to that extent, like some furry hivemind... but I doubt it

That's what I got from what I skimmed and what I've recalled from earlier reading. Exactly how they determined the "correct amount of space for a rat" seems well non-existant. Because in other rat-pop experiments the environment was even more controlled as with the population (limiting the total number of rats in segregated sections of the environment, the researcher noted different densities within different areas. Each area was accessible to another, and sections with higher densities had a distinctly different "society" and behavior pattern. The "beautiful" rats were in the most populous sections.

There are also other observations of when a population had more males or females, the "society" took a distinctive manner, and the hierarchies radically changed and seemed to diverge from the norm.

All seems to me like tracing circles around the fact that (perhaps local but multiple and predominant) overpopulation can trigger those weird behaviours way before the technical limit of population is reached, whatever that is.

I agree.

Calling it "the results of inminent overpopulation threat" instead of "the results of overpopulation" sounds to me like dancing...

I think that boiled down to which title would sell more copies.

I would think even though very similar the situation would be drastically different. To me anyways.
one is a perceived threat resulting in stress - subjective fear of not enough food, water, shelter/space
the other is actual threat and the stress it creates - objective fear of not enough food, water, shelter/space

 

[Maggie]

one is a perceived threat resulting in stress - subjective fear of not enough food, water, shelter/space
the other is actual threat and the stress it creates - objective fear of not enough food, water, shelter/space

But can rats have a "subjective fear of not enough food, water, shelter/space" without experiencing to some extent "objective fear of not enough food, water, shelter/space"

I doubt it

There are also other observations of when a population had more males or females, the "society" took a distinctive manner, and the hierarchies radically changed and seemed to diverge from the norm.

Yeah, that's another quite interesting topic... or how even in completely gender segregated comunities, or with a strong lack of one of them, some of the subjects change "gender"... psychologically in humans, or even physically in other species, like Clownfish, that socially require to have a female at the top of their local social ladder, and if she dies, the most dominant male changes sex to fill her (clown...ba-dum tisch) shoes

Which connects with the even more fascinating theme of social archetypes, and how "prunning" some psychological roles is usually inefective, cause other people just jump to fill those roles... to the despair of eugenists

Ok, enough, we are totally ruining the EDF mood, having a reasonable, science based conversation, with links and all... we have no shame...

 

[Sleepy]

If this does turn out to be basically a proxy play what are the odds drone strikes happen you think?

there is nothing of interest in the Caucasus for anyone besides Russia who basically just ignores them too.

worst case scenario Turkey gets involved as a prestige thing.